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farmerbill |
a.k.a. "STFU already, bambi/buffOONofhistOry | ||
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But to evoke a term from British foreign policy in the 1930s, redefined to seem like something it wasn't, is a misapplication of
history. Misapplying history leads to the opposite of learning lessons from history: using false history to try to
promote a political argument. At best that's unpersuasive. At worst, it could lead to another fiasco.
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HistryBuff |
Re: Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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It is not "redefining" British foreign policy which was appeasement of dictators and forcing the Czechs to give up their territory to Germans. This
resulted in the destruction of Czechoslovakia, did nothing to stop the dictators' aggression, and ultimately led to war and the Holocaust.
Churchill warned his country not to follow appeasement, just as many warn against Obama's reckless policies. A big difference is that the Israelis, unlike the Czechs, are not going to commit suicide, no matter what Hussein says. |
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farmerbill |
a.k.a. "STFU already, bambi/buffOONofhistOry | ||
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But to evoke a term from British foreign policy in the 1930s, redefined to seem like something it wasn't, is a misapplication of
history. Misapplying history leads to the opposite of learning lessons from history: using false history to try to
promote a political argument. At best that's unpersuasive. At worst, it could lead to another fiasco.
and for the record, is this avatar image supposed to be "you," or are you "borrowing" yet another image from someone else? |
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musclvr52 |
Re: Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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Farmer, WHY do you feed the troll???????
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HistryBuff |
Re: Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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Bertz, why do you not consider yourself a troll?
Farmerbill, you're just repeating the same blather over and over. You already posted that quote. The point is clear: Obama's predecessor, Neville Chamberlain, arrogantly and naively believed that he could talk with and appease dictators bent on conquest and destruction. He undermined the independent country of Czechoslovakia by forcing them to cede territory to Germans, who were allegedly being abused and supplanted by Czechs. The result, as anyone with historical knowledge knows, was to destroy Czechoslovakia and to allow the Nazis to conquer it. In this case, Iran has called for the destruction of Israel and denies the Holocaust. Iran backs and coordinates with Hezbollah and Hamas, which holds the most destructive power among Palestinians. Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel, so Obama's actions are precisely analogous to Chamberlain's. This time, fortunately, the small country will defend itself and Obama will not get his wish. Interestingly, North Korea, Russia, China, Iran and other countries routinely say "FU" to Obama--but the one he seems really worked up over is our closest ally in the Middle East, democratic Israel. |
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HM Rog |
Re: OBAMA IN CAIRO: THE SPEECH | ||
But at least he's trying, and that alone is "change worth waiting for." Ditto! |
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vwpatterson3 |
Re: OBAMA IN CAIRO: THE SPEECH | ||
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I agree. It was a personal tour de force for Obama and although he is not going to satisfy everyone in the Mid-East with one speech, it will go a long way to
help thaw the big freeze.
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xxbigjoeyxx |
Re: OBAMA IN CAIRO: THE SPEECH | ||
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great speech. i did smile trying to imagine bush or any other politician trying to give a similiar speech; not even bill clinton could have pulled this off as
well as obama. a great start to change to view of the muslim world.
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farmerbill |
Pot Meets Kettle, yet again | ||
Farmerbill, you're just repeating the same blather over and over. You already posted that quote. good heavens, bambi/BOOB, you must be the least self-aware creature on the planet. in case you haven't noticed, YOU are repeating the same blather over and over. and, as the quote suggests, your "analysis" of "history" is a simplistic, cartoonish characture of reality, parrotted from some equally mindless and clueless "source" who has no basis for spewing the crap they are. in other words, you are "using false history to try to promote a political argument." and you really need to stop sharing your ignorant monkey crap as if it's a valuable contribution. |
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White Mustang |
Re: OBAMA IN CAIRO: THE SPEECH | ||
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Obama's overtures to the Muslim world has a real chance of isolating the extremists in the Middle East. That could very well do more in our fight against
terrorism (ok, islamic extremism) than anything else. I donated money to both his primary and general campaigns. I volunteered time for his campaign doing
voter registration. I voted for him. And I prayed that he would win this election. I had such high expectations. And he has managed to exceed them.
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JasJames |
Re: Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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Let me see. As I recall my history (but then, age is dimming my feeble mind), Hitler was taking over Europe and Chamberlain went along. Israel keeps taking
over Palestinian territory with "settlements" and Obama objects. And Obama is supposed to be like Chamberlain? Somehow, it does not compute.
JamesJames
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vwpatterson3 |
Re: Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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The argument being made by the GOP hawks in a nutty nutshell is that Obama is "weak" because he doesn't want to blow up any country that dares to
disagree with the US. That's basically what the GOP wants to do, but they won't say it: "just bomb the fuckers."
"Bomb that nutjob in North Korea! Bomb those loonies in Iran! Never give an inch to Palestine! Support Israel NO MATTER WHAT!! Christ was a Jew and we're beholden! Don't you know they're God's chosen people, you left-wing atheist??? And, by the way, if the chinks in the Far-East give us any trouble, we'll bomb them, too!! We're Americans!! We don't apologize!! We don't fall for that lily-livered UN diplomacy crap! It makes us look weak! God gave us a military and we should use it!!" BOMB, BOMB, BOMB!!! It's Kubrick's "Dr. Strangelove" all over again. |
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HistryBuff |
Re: Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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JasJames, your history is incorrect. In fact, it echoes what Chamberlain was saying, which was that the Czechs were taking land from Germans. In fact, Israel
didn't take land from anyone. It was invaded over and over, and it won those wars. After each, the Israelis ended up giving back territory. In the case
of the Palestinians, they were given a state alongside Israel way back in 1947. They and the Arabs didn't like that, and set out to destroy Israel. Five
Arab States and the local Palestinians attacked and lost big. Recently, Israel moved out of Gaza, which was taken over by Hamas, a terrorist organization
(according to both the US and EU) dedicated to destroying Israel, and backed by Iran. Hamas fired 1000s of rockets into Israeli cities until the Israelis
kicked their asses until they stopped. The other Palestinian group, Fatah is woefully corrupt and has also refused repeated peace offers.
It's a repeat of history for the small nation surrounded by larger enemies to be attacked and asked to cede more territory as a prelude to peace. Chamberlain got away with it and the Czech was crushed. Israel will not let Obama do it to them. |
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HistryBuff |
Obama's Mideast Policy - Shades of Neville Chamberlain. This Time, He'll Be Stopped. | ||
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In August, UK Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, sent Lord Runciman to Czechoslovakia in order to see if he could obtain a settlement between the Czechoslovak government and the Germans in the Sudetenland. His mission resulted in the urgent recommendation to the return of the Sudetenland Runciman reported the following to the British government:
The Nazis, together with their Sudeten German allies, demanded incorporation of the region into Nazi Germany to escape "oppression", in fact to destroy the Czechoslovak state. While the Czechoslovak government mobilized its troops, the Western powers urged it to comply with Germany believing that they could prevent or postpone a general war by appeasing Hitler.
Map of the Sudetenland Reichsgau.
Sudeten Germans greeting Hitler with the Nazi salute
after he crossed the border into Czechoslovakia in 1938.
British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met with Adolf Hitler in Berchtesgaden on 15 September and agreed to the cession of the Sudetenland. Three days later, French Prime Minister Édouard Daladier did the same. No Czechoslovak representative was invited to these discussions. |
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vwpatterson3 |
OBAMA IN CAIRO: THE SPEECH | ||
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RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- In his latest push for an open dialogue with the Muslim world, President Barack Obama on Wednesday sought the counsel of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and put the finishing touches on a highly anticipated speech about United States' relationship with followers of Islam. The president travels to Egypt on Thursday to deliver the address that aides say will encourage a stronger partnership between Americans and Muslims while touching on a broad range of hot-button issues, including violent extremism, the threat of a nuclear Iran, and efforts to root out suspected terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Aides say Obama also will acknowledge that the Isreali-Palestinan conflict has been an important source of tension and passion while voicing his views on what all sides need to do to end the standoff. In a briefing for reporters, Obama speechwriter Ben Rhodes offered a preview of the address: The President really sees this as an opportunity to continue a dialogue he's had since his inauguration -- you saw that in his Al Arabiya interview, in his Nowruz message, in his speech in Turkey, among other things -- to really start a new chapter of engagement between the United States and Muslim world.
Before heading to Cairo, Obama opened his Mideast trip with a visit to Abdullah, the monarch of a country that's home to Islam's two holiest
sites in Mecca and Medina.
"The United States and Saudi Arabia have a long history of friendship," Obama said as he visited the monarch's desert horse farm. The U.S. president called Abdullah wise and gracious, adding: "I am confident that working together that the United States and Saudi Arabia can make progress on a whole host of issues of mutual interest." In turn, Abdullah expressed his "best wishes to the friendly American people who are represented by a distinguished man who deserves to be in this position." Earlier, the king greeted Obama at Riyadh's main airport with a ceremony when the new U.S. president arrived after an overnight flight from Washington. Each country's national anthem was played, the Saudi national guard was on hand and there was a 21-gun salute. Obama and Abdullah then sat together in gilded chairs, sipped cardamom-flavored Arabic coffee and chatted briefly in public before retreating to hold private talks. Around the same time Air Force One touched down in the country, pan-Arab Al-Jazeera Television broadcast a new audio tape from Osama bin Laden in which he threatened Americans and said Obama inflamed hatred toward the U.S. by ordering Pakistan to crack down on militants in Swat Valley and block Islamic law there. White House press secretary Robert Gibbs dismissed the recording, saying: "I don't think it's surprising that al Qaida would want to shift attention away from the president's historic efforts and continued efforts to reach out and have an open dialogue with the Muslim world." With Abdullah alongside him, Obama told reporters: "I thought it was very important to come to the place where Islam began and to seek his majesty's counsel and to discuss with him many of the issues that we confront here in the Middle East." In Riyadh, the president was talking to Abdullah about a host of thorny problems, from Arab-Israeli peace efforts to Iran's nuclear program. The surge in oil prices also was on the agenda. And, Obama also was looking for help from Saudi Arabia on what to do with some 100 Yemeni detainees locked up in the Guantanamo Bay prison. The Obama administration has been negotiating with Saudi Arabia and Yemen for months to send them to Saudi terrorist rehabilitation centers. During a pre-trip interview with the BBC, Obama set the tone for his swing through the Middle East, saying: "What we want to do is open a dialogue." In Cairo, Obama is set to deliver the speech that he's been promising since last year's election campaign _ aiming to set a new tone in America's often-strained dealings with the world's 1.5 billion Muslims. Many of those Muslims still smolder over Iraq, Guantanamo and unflinching U.S. support of Israel, but they are hoping the son of a Kenyan Muslim who lived part of his childhood in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country, can help chart a new course. Aides cautioned that Obama was not out to break new policy ground in his Cairo speech, which follows visits to Turkey and Iraq in April and a series of outreach efforts including a Persian New Year video and a student town hall in Istanbul. And they said the president is not expecting quick results, even though the speech will be distributed as widely as possible. Officials said Obama also wouldn't flinch from difficult topics, whether it's the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, the goal of a Palestinian state or democracy and human rights. Obama has been criticized for setting the address in Egypt, where President Hosni Mubarak has jailed dissidents and clung to power for nearly three decades. The White House is going to extraordinary lengths to make sure the speech is heard throughout the Muslim world. Gibbs said the speech will be posted on the White House Web site, along with links to fully translated transcripts in 13 languages. He said it also will be posted on social networking Web sites like Facebook, My Space and Twitter. In addition, Gibbs said the State Department is registering callers from around the world who want to receive text messages about speech while it's being delivered and provide feedback, which will be posted on the department's Web site. |
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HistryBuff |
Obama's "Dishonorable" and "Self-Defeating" Myths About Israeli Settlements | ||
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June 5, 2009
The Settlements MythBy Charles KrauthammerWASHINGTON -- Obama the Humble declares there will be no more "dictating" to other countries. We should "forge partnerships as opposed to simply dictating solutions," he told the G-20 summit. In Middle East negotiations, he told al-Arabiya, America will henceforth "start by listening, because all too often the United States starts by dictating." An admirable sentiment. It applies to everyone -- Iran, Russia, Cuba, Syria, even Venezuela. Except Israel. Israel is ordered to freeze all settlement activity. As Secretary of State Clinton imperiously explained the diktat: "a stop to settlements -- not some settlements, not outposts, not natural-growth exceptions." What's the issue? No "natural growth" means strangling to death the thriving towns close to the 1949 armistice line, many of them suburbs of Jerusalem, that every negotiation over the past decade has envisioned Israel retaining. It means no increase in population. Which means no babies. Or if you have babies, no housing for them -- not even within the existing town boundaries. Which means for every child born, someone has to move out. No community can survive like that. The obvious objective is to undermine and destroy these towns -- even before negotiations. To what end? Over the last decade, the U.S. government has understood that any final peace treaty would involve Israel retaining some of the close-in settlements -- and compensating the Palestinians accordingly with land from within Israel itself. That was envisioned in the Clinton plan in the Camp David negotiations in 2000, and again at Taba in 2001. After all, why turn towns to rubble when, instead, Arabs and Jews can stay in their homes if the 1949 armistice line is shifted slightly into the Palestinian side to capture the major close-in Jewish settlements, and then shifted into Israeli territory to capture Israeli land to give to the Palestinians? This idea is not only logical, not only accepted by both Democratic and Republican administrations for the last decade, but was agreed to in writing in the letters of understanding exchanged between Israel and the United States in 2004 -- and subsequently overwhelmingly endorsed by a concurrent resolution of Congress. Yet the Obama State Department has repeatedly refused to endorse these agreements or even say it will honor them. This from a president who piously insists that all parties to the conflict honor previous obligations. The entire "natural growth" issue is a concoction. It's farcical to suggest that the peace process is moribund because a teacher in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem is making an addition to her house to accommodate new grandchildren -- when Gaza is run by Hamas terrorists dedicated to permanent war with Israel and when Mahmoud Abbas, having turned down every one of Ehud Olmert's peace offers, brazenly declares that he is in a waiting mode -- waiting for Hamas to become moderate and for Israel to cave -- before he'll do anything to advance peace. In his much-heralded "Muslim world" address in Cairo Thursday, Obama declared that the Palestinian people's "situation" is "intolerable." Indeed it is, the result of 60 years of Palestinian leadership that gave its people corruption, tyranny, religious intolerance and forced militarization; leadership that for three generations -- Haj Amin al-Husseini in 1947, Yasser Arafat in 2000, Abbas in December 2008 -- rejected every offer of independence and dignity, choosing destitution and despair rather than accept any settlement not accompanied by the extinction of Israel. In the 16 years since the Oslo accords turned the West Bank and Gaza over to the Palestinians, their leaders -- Fatah and Hamas alike -- built no schools, no roads, no courthouses, no hospitals, no institutions that would relieve their people's suffering. Instead they poured everything into an infrastructure of war and terror, all the while depositing billions (from gullible Western donors) into their Swiss bank accounts. Obama says he came to Cairo to tell the truth. But he uttered not a word of that. Instead, among all the bromides and lofty sentiments, he issued but one concrete declaration of new American policy: "The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements," thus reinforcing the myth that Palestinian misery and statelessness are the fault of Israel and the settlements. Blaming Israel and picking a fight over "natural growth" may curry favor with the Muslim "street." But it will only induce the Arab states to do like Abbas: sit and wait for America to deliver Israel on a platter. Which makes the Obama strategy not just dishonorable but self-defeating. |
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thosholm |
Re: Obama's "Dishonorable" and "Self-Defeating" Myths About Israeli Settlements | ||
The entire "natural growth" issue is a concoction.Yes, but not by Obama or the Palestinians, rather by those who abuse it for illegal expansion. It's farcical to suggest that the peace process is moribund because a teacher in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem is making an addition to her house to accommodate new grandchildren... Then why does the Israeli government destroy houses of Palestinians who build "natural growth" additions to their homes? As described here. The "no new hospitals, schools, roads, etc." is a blatant lie. As can be seen here. <<edited for typo>> Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of one party - however numerous they may be - is no freedom at all. Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently. Not because of any fanatical concept of "justice" but because all that is instructive, wholesome and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effectiveness vanishes when "freedom" becomes a special privilege. R.L., Germany |
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vwpatterson3 |
Re: Obama's "Dishonorable" and "Self-Defeating" Myths About Israeli Settlements | ||
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Shimon Peres: Rabin's example teaches us Israelis that the settlements must go
Thursday, 13 November 2008 Every year we return to the Knesset to commemorate a prime minister, the only one in the history of the State who was murdered by a fellow Jew. Yitzhak Rabin - may his memory be blessed - died 13 years ago as a result of a methodical campaign of hate, incitement and instigation. Today, the incitement is not reduced; the instigation has not decreased; the hatred has not dissipated. Israelis strike Palestinians as they harvest their olives - and no one puts a stop to it. Young Israeli citizens, gripped by messianic dreams which have no basis in the reality of our lives, beat our soldiers, break their bones, threaten their lives - and no one stops them. And now the decisive moment is growing close. We are standing at its threshold. This decision will be difficult and painful. But the government must tell the truth, and this truth, unfortunately, will obligate us to rip away many portions of the homeland. This decision, when it is made, will not be an indictment against the settlers, the vast majority of whom are not violent but rather an integral part of a dedicated, loyal public which loves the land and builds it up. There were moments, which we were all party to, during which we desired with all our hearts to leave our indelible mark on that land. I too was party to it. We thought we could succeed in having a country which was Jewish, democratic, decent, violence-free, one which welcomed and embraced its neighbours within the borders of our sovereignty. It will not work. It is already not working. It claimed a price we do not have the moral strength to bear. And so I have the duty to appeal to the builders and settlers and say with great respect and appreciation that you too must search your souls and reach a decision. Not due to conflict and strife, not due to the rift which will tear the most sensitive fabric of our agonising society, but rather as a result of inevitable acceptance, as a result of noble understanding - that this is the only way. For what is the significance of these memorial ceremonies in honour of Yitzhak Rabin if they do include the understanding that we cannot assist - under any circumstances, in any case - in the creation of an atmosphere that regresses to those dark days? From an address to the Knesset by Israeli President Shimon Peres |
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pandrmoderator |
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Yes, one of the moderators merged these threads. You are not imagining it.
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vwpatterson3 |
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Obama's Cairo speech doesn't deserve a thread of it's own?
Sad. |
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